[mesa-users] mesa-users Digest, Vol 50, Issue 71
Richard Townsend
townsend at astro.wisc.edu
Fri Oct 25 13:14:27 EDT 2013
On Oct 25, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Stephen Ro <ro at astro.utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Hi Rich,
>
> I should have also pointed out the models from Petrovic et al. (2006) carry a gas-pressure inversion which necessarily implies there exists a density inversion (the opposite is certainly not true). Joss, Salpeter & Ostriker (1973) also demonstrates that a gas-pressure inversion is equivalent to a super-Eddington layer in a hydrostatic star. This is one of the motivations Grafener et al. (2012) include porosity effects.
>
Agreed! Gas-pressure inversions are required in any super-Eddington layer, as it’s the inward pressure gradient which allows the star to remain in hydrostatic equilibrium.
> I agree, the physics of density inversions is perfectly sound (and a nice exercise!). However, it may still be useful to consider Andre's chronicle of the criticisms/support for density inversions.
>
My recollection from the literature back then was that there was confusion over whether the density inversion would be Raleigh-Taylor unstable.
To determine this, one must use the instability criterion for a compressible fluid (the classic Rayleigh-Taylor derivation assumes incompressibility). This, of course, is the Schwarzschild criterion! So, the convective instability of a density-inverted layer *is* the manifestation of the RT instability — there’s no need to consider the RT instability separately from convection (and indeed to do so would be incorrect).
cheers,
Rich
> Best,
> Stephen
>
>
> Stephen Ro
> PhD Candidate
> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
> University of Toronto
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Richard Townsend <townsend at astro.wisc.edu> wrote:
> Hi Stephen —
>
> I’m not sure this density inversion is something to worry about. It’s been known about for a while, and there are good physical reasons for it; I’m not sure its a 1D artifact. A useful reference is Joss, Salpeter & Ostriker (1973):
>
> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1973ApJ...181..429J
>
> cheers,
>
> Rich
>
> On Oct 25, 2013, at 10:40 AM, Stephen Ro <ro at astro.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>> Hi Craig and All,
>>
>> Matteo's references also find a density inversion near the stellar surface if the mass loss rate is low enough (Petrovic et al. 2006). From my knowledge, this structure appears to be a long standing concern in 1D stellar structure modelling. Here's a nice chronicle from Andre Maeder: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1992iesh.conf..138M.
>>
>> Does any one know of any additional references or remarks which talk about this?
>>
>> Best,
>> Stephen
>>
>> Stephen Ro
>> PhD Candidate
>> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
>> University of Toronto
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:27 AM, <mesa-users-request at lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Missing Mono OP files (Ehsan Moravveji)
>> 2. Re: Missing Mono OP files (Aaron Dotter)
>> 3. Re: Missing Mono OP files (Bill Paxton)
>> 4. Re: Extended helium envelopes (Bill Paxton)
>> 5. installing command-line tools for OS X Mavericks (Ed Brown)
>> 6. Extended helium envelopes (David Arnett)
>> 7. Re: Extended helium envelopes (Matteo Cantiello)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 00:07:06 +0200
>> From: Ehsan Moravveji <e.moravveji at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [mesa-users] Missing Mono OP files
>> To: mesa-users <mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Message-ID: <51DBE60E-0BBE-4BB8-BC96-B78DA4086FB2 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Hi all,
>> As the opacity topic is hot these days, I like to test how the monochromatic OP does the job. So, I did fetch the tarball, and put it somewhere outside the MESA root directory, and provided the link
>> in the inlist. However, at the beginning of the execution, it yells for a missing file
>>
>> loading OP mono data...
>> failed to open /STER/ehsan/models/OP_mono/OP4STARS_1.3/mono/m01.mesh
>> error while loading OP data, ierr = -1
>> finish_load_model: failed in set_vars
>> failed in finish_load_model
>> star_create_pre_ms_model ierr -1
>> do_load1_star ierr -1
>>
>> However, searching for any .mesh file does not go too far!
>>
>> bash-4.2$ ls */*.mesh
>> ls: cannot access */*.mesh: No such file or directory
>>
>> In addition, I cannot locate "op_mono_cache.bin" file which is required by the &controls variable op_mono_data_cache_filename.
>>
>> What shall I do?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Ehsan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:28:31 +1100
>> From: Aaron Dotter <aaron.dotter at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [mesa-users] Missing Mono OP files
>> To: Ehsan Moravveji <e.moravveji at gmail.com>
>> Cc: mesa-users <mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAN5--jM+n0QWKpZ5=ReJ1CWRJ=yJxq4ASOnAs0TNPj7uZrEdnw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi Ehsan,
>>
>> The op_mono_cache.bin is something that MESA wants to create for you.
>> Since the process didn't complete, you won't find that file.
>>
>> In the OPCD directory that I created, the file is called m01.index rather
>> than .mesh. If that is true for you also, perhaps you can modify the code
>> to change the filename?
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Ehsan Moravveji <e.moravveji at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> > As the opacity topic is hot these days, I like to test how the
>> > monochromatic OP does the job. So, I did fetch the tarball, and put it
>> > somewhere outside the MESA root directory, and provided the link
>> > in the inlist. However, at the beginning of the execution, it yells for a
>> > missing file
>> >
>> > loading OP mono data...
>> > failed to open /STER/ehsan/models/OP_mono/OP4STARS_1.3/mono/m01.mesh
>> > error while loading OP data, ierr = -1
>> > finish_load_model: failed in set_vars
>> > failed in finish_load_model
>> > star_create_pre_ms_model ierr -1
>> > do_load1_star ierr -1
>> >
>> > However, searching for any .mesh file does not go too far!
>> >
>> > bash-4.2$ ls */*.mesh
>> > ls: cannot access */*.mesh: No such file or directory
>> >
>> > In addition, I cannot locate "op_mono_cache.bin" file which is required by
>> > the &controls variable op_mono_data_cache_filename.
>> >
>> > What shall I do?
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Ehsan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> > Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> > Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most
>> > from
>> > the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > mesa-users mailing list
>> > mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa-users
>> >
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 15:34:32 -0700
>> From: Bill Paxton <paxton at kitp.ucsb.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [mesa-users] Missing Mono OP files
>> To: Ehsan Moravveji <e.moravveji at gmail.com>
>> Cc: mesa-users <mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Message-ID: <7FE32D36-9C4B-42FE-915B-12BDE8493632 at kitp.ucsb.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> I'll fix it and put a new OP4STARS_1.3.tar.gz on sourceforge.
>>
>> -B
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 24, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Ehsan Moravveji wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> > As the opacity topic is hot these days, I like to test how the monochromatic OP does the job. So, I did fetch the tarball, and put it somewhere outside the MESA root directory, and provided the link
>> > in the inlist. However, at the beginning of the execution, it yells for a missing file
>> >
>> > loading OP mono data...
>> > failed to open /STER/ehsan/models/OP_mono/OP4STARS_1.3/mono/m01.mesh
>> > error while loading OP data, ierr = -1
>> > finish_load_model: failed in set_vars
>> > failed in finish_load_model
>> > star_create_pre_ms_model ierr -1
>> > do_load1_star ierr -1
>> >
>> > However, searching for any .mesh file does not go too far!
>> >
>> > bash-4.2$ ls */*.mesh
>> > ls: cannot access */*.mesh: No such file or directory
>> >
>> > In addition, I cannot locate "op_mono_cache.bin" file which is required by the &controls variable op_mono_data_cache_filename.
>> >
>> > What shall I do?
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Ehsan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> > Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> > Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
>> > the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > mesa-users mailing list
>> > mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa-users
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 16:28:16 -0700
>> From: Bill Paxton <paxton at kitp.ucsb.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [mesa-users] Extended helium envelopes
>> To: Craig Wheeler <wheel at astro.as.utexas.edu>
>> Cc: mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> Message-ID: <A74459DB-1E0B-409E-A546-C9A44673C9D8 at kitp.ucsb.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Hi Craig,
>>
>> Send an inlist and a saved model after removing envelope but before it expands.
>> Then we can try it ourselves to see what might be going on.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Oct 24, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Craig Wheeler wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > We are trying to make ad hoc "Wolf-Rayet" models with MESA by stripping
>> > off the hydrogen envelope by hand from massive star models near the
>> > end of helium core burning. We are finding that the resulting "stripped
>> > envelope" models evolve normally for a while, but then are prone to
>> > having the remaining helium envelope expand to red-giant size,
>> > 100 R_sun or so. There is no question this can happen in some
>> > circumstances, for instance stars with a substantial helium abundance
>> > and a helium-burning shell atop a degenerate carbon/oxygen core, the
>> > supposed the structure of R Cor Bor stars. I have, however, no
>> > recollection of this expanding helium envelope phenomenon occurring
>> > in more massive, non-degenerate cores. The issue seems more acute
>> > for lower mass cores, a few to 10 solar masses, but may be related to
>> > opacity bumps, Eddington luminosity and radiation pressure. It also
>> > seems to be exacerbated by rotation.
>> >
>> > Any perspective on this issue would be appreciated.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Craig
>> >
>> > --
>> > J. Craig Wheeler
>> > Department of Astronomy
>> > 2515 Speedway, Stop C1400
>> > Austin, TX 78712-1205
>> > 512-471-6407
>> > http://www.as.utexas.edu/~wheel
>> > http://ebooks.cambridge.org/ebook.jsf?bid=CBO9780511536625
>> > http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/127749
>> > http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/178104
>> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Krone-Experiment-ebook/dp/B008Y6L3VW
>> > http://www.amazon.com/Krone-Ascending-ebook/dp/B00926QEGW
>> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Q-Man-1-ebook/dp/B00AFKJYKC
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> > Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> > Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
>> > the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > mesa-users mailing list
>> > mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa-users
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 01:36:03 +0000
>> From: Ed Brown <ebrown at pa.msu.edu>
>> Subject: [mesa-users] installing command-line tools for OS X Mavericks
>> To: "mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net"
>> <mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Message-ID: <7365D582-8697-46C5-904E-F34598BBCB2D at pa.msu.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>
>> Dear MESA community,
>> If you are upgrading Apple OS to the latest version, the procedure for installing the command line tools (prerequisite for the SDK) has changed. After installing the Xcode app, you need to open a terminal window and type
>>
>> xcode-select ?install
>>
>> This will pop up a dialog box asking if you would like to install the tools. Once that was done, I found that installation of MESA proceeded smoothly.
>>
>> Thanks to Rich for finding this. Note that the tools are also available from the Apple Developer website, but the option to install them is no longer in the preference pane of the Xcode app.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 19:19:50 -0700
>> From: David Arnett <wdarnett at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [mesa-users] Extended helium envelopes
>> To: mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAGpgfQF1o4tfdm+B-QU=Vcuiqh0NniHH9eoSDcNqpfaLafBvXQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We are trying to make ad hoc "Wolf-Rayet" models with MESA by stripping
>> off the hydrogen envelope by hand from massive star models near the
>> end of helium core burning. We are finding that the resulting "stripped
>> envelope" models evolve normally for a while, but then are prone to
>> having the remaining helium envelope expand to red-giant size,
>> 100 R_sun or so. There is no question this can happen in some
>> circumstances, for instance stars with a substantial helium abundance
>> and a helium-burning shell atop a degenerate carbon/oxygen core, the
>> supposed the structure of R Cor Bor stars. I have, however, no
>> recollection of this expanding helium envelope phenomenon occurring
>> in more massive, non-degenerate cores. The issue seems more acute
>> for lower mass cores, a few to 10 solar masses, but may be related to
>> opacity bumps, Eddington luminosity and radiation pressure. It also
>> seems to be exacerbated by rotation.
>>
>> Yes, there is a pronounced tendency to do this.
>> Lower mass core are most likely to do so. This may have been obscured by
>> a lack of care in zoning, etc., imho. Rotation gives an outward acceleration
>> and thus enhances the effect. We need to carefully sort this out, I think.
>>
>> Any perspective on this issue would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Arnett
>> Regents Professor
>> Steward Observatory
>> University of Arizona
>>
>> Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable. Mark Twain
>> Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Aldous Huxley
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 10:27:22 -0400
>> From: Matteo Cantiello <cantiel at kitp.ucsb.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [mesa-users] Extended helium envelopes
>> To: Craig Wheeler <wheel at astro.as.utexas.edu>
>> Cc: mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> Message-ID: <D379466B-DC68-42C1-B21A-E35770E896F7 at kitp.ucsb.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Hi Craig,
>> envelope inflation for WR stars (and in general radiation dominated envelopes) has been found and discussed in stellar models before:
>> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006A%26A...450..219P
>> It's origin, as you correctly suspect, is due to the high stellar luminosity and the presence of opacity bumps (in particular the Fe bump at ~150kK).
>> There is a very nice discussion of this effect in Graefener et al. 2012
>> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2012ASPC..465..202G
>> And more recently in Graefener and Vink, 2013
>> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013arXiv1309.6236G
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>> -Matteo
>>
>> Matteo Cantiello | http://matteocantiello.com/
>> Postdoctoral Fellow, Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics
>> Scientific Advisor, Authorea | http://authorea.com/
>>
>> On Oct 24, 2013, at 7:28 PM, Bill Paxton <paxton at kitp.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Craig,
>> >
>> > Send an inlist and a saved model after removing envelope but before it expands.
>> > Then we can try it ourselves to see what might be going on.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Bill
>> >
>> >
>> > On Oct 24, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Craig Wheeler wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> We are trying to make ad hoc "Wolf-Rayet" models with MESA by stripping
>> >> off the hydrogen envelope by hand from massive star models near the
>> >> end of helium core burning. We are finding that the resulting "stripped
>> >> envelope" models evolve normally for a while, but then are prone to
>> >> having the remaining helium envelope expand to red-giant size,
>> >> 100 R_sun or so. There is no question this can happen in some
>> >> circumstances, for instance stars with a substantial helium abundance
>> >> and a helium-burning shell atop a degenerate carbon/oxygen core, the
>> >> supposed the structure of R Cor Bor stars. I have, however, no
>> >> recollection of this expanding helium envelope phenomenon occurring
>> >> in more massive, non-degenerate cores. The issue seems more acute
>> >> for lower mass cores, a few to 10 solar masses, but may be related to
>> >> opacity bumps, Eddington luminosity and radiation pressure. It also
>> >> seems to be exacerbated by rotation.
>> >>
>> >> Any perspective on this issue would be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Craig
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> J. Craig Wheeler
>> >> Department of Astronomy
>> >> 2515 Speedway, Stop C1400
>> >> Austin, TX 78712-1205
>> >> 512-471-6407
>> >> http://www.as.utexas.edu/~wheel
>> >> http://ebooks.cambridge.org/ebook.jsf?bid=CBO9780511536625
>> >> http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/127749
>> >> http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/178104
>> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Krone-Experiment-ebook/dp/B008Y6L3VW
>> >> http://www.amazon.com/Krone-Ascending-ebook/dp/B00926QEGW
>> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Q-Man-1-ebook/dp/B00AFKJYKC
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> >> Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> >> Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
>> >> the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> mesa-users mailing list
>> >> mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa-users
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> > Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> > Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
>> > the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > mesa-users mailing list
>> > mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa-users
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
>> the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mesa-users mailing list
>> mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa-users
>>
>>
>> End of mesa-users Digest, Vol 50, Issue 71
>> ******************************************
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
>> the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________
>> mesa-users mailing list
>> mesa-users at lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa-users
>
>
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